Copora Changes Regarding Knighthood

[Arminius]

I am still against changing this item of our corpora at this time, however I feel I should review the alternatives in terms of their merits.

The Nevon, et al. revision is rather well balanced, however I would rather it require 2/3 of the Dues Paid Populace of the Kingdom rather than the allthing. Allthing location and date can be used to manipulate the vote for approval. For example, if an allthing is held here in Amarillo in January and a blizzard cuts Amarillo/Canyon from the rest of the kingdom, the resulting vote could be biased.

A Quorom (which is 2/3rds of all those able to vote) would ensure the candidate is known and respected beyond their local park/company. While this process would take longer to gather the votes, it also would leave little room for arguement about the candidate.

Both option would ruin the surprise of knighthood, which is a major draw back, but unavoidable with either way written.

The better option would be Darken's 1-yr wait time. This eliminates shenanigans aspect of Masterhood-Knighthood combo, or even by the same Monarch (which is limited by 2 consecutive term maximum).

The stipulation I would include is keeping the requirement of a Knight must perform the ceremony. It is a minor control for the CoK. If not a single Knight will grant them the honor, it should say something to the Monarch.

I would also state in both instances, the we change "Knight to perform the ceremony" to "Active Knight of the Kingdom to conduct the ceremony". This eliminates The bypass of no knight in or kingdom will do it, but Sir Joe Slacker from BFE who hasn't been out in 12 years, but is the Monarch's brother in law, from being able to do it. The simple change from Perform to Conduct allows those squired to knights outside of the kingdom to still have their knight drop the sword on them.

As I said, I still believe we should leave it be for now, but I believe these changes add considerable value and counter-balance to the other proposals.

[Nevon]

hey arminius, i hate to sound ignorant but what is the difference between 2/3 allthing vote and 2/3 dues paid vote? arent they the same? or are you saying that you would rather the 2/3 part not be decided by allthing but some other media that gets the dues paid members only?

also, i hate to sound rude or anything but im still a believer in "if the allthing is important enough, you will find a way there". i mean i understand real life circumstances (i.e. the blizzard scenario) getting in the way but if something is important enough to you, you will find a way to make it happen. however, this is just a game and should never take precedence over real life. so, maybe i should recant my statement.

anywho arminius, just a little clarity of what you mean would be nice.

[Arminius]

Nevon, allow me to clarify the difference between 2/3rd allthing and Quorom.

2/3rd allthing would be of those able to attend the allthing at a given location on a given date. This vote is taken at the allthing.

Quorom is 2/3rd agreement of all the dues paid members of the kingdom as of a given date. This vote would be taken by each park's PM or Monarch and results sent up to the Kingdom Monarch or Guildmaster of Knights to add all the lands votes together.

Beyond the shenanigan aspect of controling the where the allthing is held, and the other shady ways we have already run through that can be used to manipulate the allthing, I think quorom better make the point this measure intends to do.

I see that the idea behind this is that validation from the people of the kingdom should be ground to bypass approval by the monarch or CoK. If that is the case, then truly give it to the people. A worthy candidate should be known by more than their home park and the regulars at events and allthings. People who cannot travel from their own lands should know of the person as well, and have a good impression of them.

It also gives a solid ground for the candidate. If you can manage to get 2/3rds of the populace of this kingdom, who by nature tend to be as stubborn as an old mule, then the remaining third has little room to argue that the candidate is not worthy. 2/3rds of an allthing may only be 2/3rds of 10% of the kingdom, leaving room for a lot of dissention about a candidate who passed.

[gom si xun]

2/3 of the dues paid populace is going to be a bit to hard to maintain exact numbers on as this is always in a state of flux. This is the need for 2/3 all thing

[Iago]

I agree Iago you can't make everyone happy, and thoses that try are doomed to faliure. I have heard the same bitching from well over the majority of the populace for years. So to me personally I see a problem.

Maybe I missed it in all of this, but has anyone said exactly what the complaints are? As I wasn't at your last Althing, were they specifically brought up there? I have seen the portion of clicks, and bias, which is bound to happen with anything. I am just curious if this is a problem with the system as is currently or if it is a problem of people feeling individuals are deserving of knighthood, but not recieving them when they think they should.

We do need a change, but remember arminius even a failed change is just an allthing away from going back to how it was, or fixing the bad parts. Nothing is permanent, so why not try for something that may be better, and can always be removed.

Can't disagree with this at all.

As for the proposals this is how I see it.
Jeddeck - Monarch must have COK approval.
Well if this is the case why didn't the CoK already vote this person in? Kinda pointless.

I think this is just a matter of ensuring some sort of check for the monarch, if the wording were to say only the monarch may make a knight. Gives circle a voice, and still allows the Monarch final decision. I honestly think this is the same thing as current, just worded backwords. Is also the exact suggestion I am working on running in BL. However, we do not have the knight must perform the ceremony, so this prevents anyone from knighting just because they are Monarch, as they can right now.

Arminius - The system itself is not as flawed as many think. The system, when looked at through a fully analytical mind, is actually quite sound as it is.
You are right in this matter, but you have to relieze that it's the people in the system that make it fail, not the system itself. And yes you are correct that the Monarch can veto, but that just puts a hold on it for 6 months.

You are correct in all of this. Would just like to point out, that this will be the case in any system. 95% of processes designed to accomplish something are sound, it's the practie of that process by people that is the problem.

But just so you know the person that I vetoed, other kingdoms came up to our CoK and offered to knight this person. The GL of CoK told them no out of respect to our kingdom. So the monarch veto is not as powerful a tool as you may think.

Was this said so the other KD would not approach the Monarch about it to avoid more issues? I don't think that there is a KD out there that will award any award, without concent from the Monarch of the other KD/local park depending on award. Thats just poor form on the other KDs part if they were going to try and circumvent all the corporas.

Ryuujin- I think you might have missed my point. As stated previously there is no perfect system; someone will always get their feelings hurt.

In the instance for Warblade getting probation; he got upset that Darken made the decision he did. He wasn't pissed off at the system, he was pissed off that Darken said no; it's human nature. Nothing wrong with the system there; CoK had their vote said yes, Monarch vetoed. Thats how your system is set up, and is a perfect example of the check and balance that GP has in place. Whether people like the fact that person "A" did not get a belt is irrelevant. The people who are supposed to have a say (as it stands in GP corpora now) had their say, and there was no knighting. I am certain that there has been in the past or will be in the future, where the CoK majority vote is yes, and the monarch agrees, and a member of the CoK is going to get their feelings hurt, but the system would still be working as designed.

As to Sir Hern bringing it up, maybe he had already been thinking about it, maybe he hadn't. However, he also stated others were taking issue with the way things are done, and as a Knight he did what he felt what a knight should do and took it to he populace.

However, you are 100% correct. The ball is in your court; i'm just an opionated individual giving my opinion, I have no vote in your Althing, vote as you see best fit for your KD.