Copora Changes Regarding Knighthood

[SirHern]

I completely understand where you are coming from on the feeling that the monarch has too much power, but there is no checks and balances on the Cok in the given system. I want a system that has checks and balances on the individual(s) that control who gets a knights belt

[Iago]

Unfortunately, I don't feel that there is a perfect checks and balances. The simple fact of the matter is that all of us, Knights included, are going to have personal bias, we're human, it's what makes us whom we are, and why we vote the way we do. What may be acceptable to me, may not be to you or any other knight, we all have our views. We will never get rid of someone saying he/she did this x# yrs back and so they don't deserve it. All we can do is voice our opinion, changing a process that has been solid (to my understanding) for nearly 16yrs isn't the answer.

Prime example of this is Monkey. As he stated, he's been waiting 8yrs (I think is what he said) for CoK approval, and I am certain that it is because of things like the "Monkey Rule" that he hasn't recieved that approval. This is why the process is good and bad at the same time. If they are right based off of things like the "Monkey Rule", then he doesn't deserve to be a knight. If he has changed away from that, then the CoK needs to not be blind to that fact.

If part of the CoK is blind to the fact that someone has changed, then there enlies the problem, and it is up to the rest of the CoK to change thier minds and help get the CoK on the right track. 9 times out of 10, you put someone on the spot about being blind to change (one way or the other) and they will step back and try to look at it again, or atleast ask to see what they have been blind to. I think that is the better start than changing your processes.

To go along with this discussion though. If you were to change the process for awarding knighthoods, then you would have to look at the process of stripping them as well which, currently, falls under the aspect of removing titles and honors, and requires basically the same reverse process for knighthoods atleast, as it does for any other title or honor. All those with the same title/honor must vote.

If the processes were to be the same, under the new suggestions, then a monarch would have WAY to much power.

[Wugem]

You’re a jolly old Knight Hern and I greatly enjoy those rare occasions when we get to play “the Amtgard” together.

For a second let me put the main topic aside and just ask, why didn’t you take this to the circle first to gain their perspective?

Change, real change, happens from the inside out not outside in and that only happens when people are willing to communicate. I believe there is hope for our kingdom to gain unity but it has to start with talking to each other not at each other.

Sorry to make you the example of this, it runs deep in your kingdom

WuGem

[Wugem]

Our*

[SirHern]

You are very correct there Wugem, that would have been the ideal way to do it, but unfortunately (maybe wrongly) that a discussion of the sort would only cause hard feelings or fall on def ears.

[Hopper]

I can understand were you are coming from on this one hern if you would have tried to bring something like this up in the past. Something to this magnitude should of had the respect of the CoK. I think you would of got more of a welcome than you think. Once again this is just my option.

[renity]

To start I would like to thank Iago for his outside perspective on GP. It is great that BL is doing so well that the people of their kingdom can find the time to assist the other kingdoms in their corpora changes. Maybe BL is doing well because of how well their corpora is written and also the way things are done down there. However I am slightly confused with one thing here, if the system we have in place is the right one already, when Iago will the kingdom of the Burning lands be changing to take away what you call WAY to much power from the monarch?

Or for that matter when will Emerald Hills, Black Spire, Crystal Grove, and Celestial Kingdom be taking this power away from their monarchs as well?

Not sure how Iron Mountains nor Golden Vale operate their corpora has no COK section it only has this

5.A.d. May award the following honors at his or her discretion:
5.A.d.2. Peerage (The four orders of Knighthood as defined in the Amtgard Rules of Play);

Iago was kind enough to take time away from his kingdom to post several examples of when this power was abused however where is the other side of the coin. Where are the examples of the knights that got the belt without the circles approval and turned out to be an amazing knight? Lets face it there is no telling if a knight will be knightly til after they have been knighted.

So given how many kingdoms have this system here is my question. For those that know knights from the kingdom with the type of system proposed did you lose respect for them? Iago is a flame knight from Burning Lands (they have this system) knowing that did it just make you lose respect for him? With all the kingdoms on that list did you lose respect for those kingdoms? There is no telling who from that kingdom was knighted without the circles approval. To say that the knights from those kingdoms are less of knight then our knights is an insult to every knight outside our kingdom.

When I first read this proposal I was torn. I want the CoK approval for the honor of knighthood. I thought of the knights that have my respect in the game not just for the belt but also for the person they are. Then I found out that the knight I have the highest amount of respect for was a knight that got one of their belts without the COK approval. I was honestly surprised and I have yet to hear of someone losing an ounce of respect for that knight I know I have not. To me that tells me that respect comes from a person’s actions not a vote.

So now to the matter of the kingdom losing respect from the other kingdoms in the game if this passed. I have to look at the facts laid before me and say that with the way our kingdom is always fighting, the complete unwillingness to get along and work together, not being able to put aside past acts or petty difference to make the kingdom whole what respect do we have? We are a very small kingdom and it is observed that we act this way. When people at clan from all over amtgard are discussing GP drama and not our merits as a kingdom, we have a serious problem that needs to be fixed.

[Iago]

To start I would like to thank Iago for his outside perspective on GP. It is great that BL is doing so well that the people of their kingdom can find the time to assist the other kingdoms in their corpora changes. Maybe BL is doing well because of how well their corpora is written and also the way things are done down there. However I am slightly confused with one thing here, if the system we have in place is the right one already, when Iago will the kingdom of the Burning lands be changing to take away what you call WAY to much power from the monarch?

I don't speak on behalf of the BL, it's not my place to, and to tell you the truth we have a tendancy to handle these types of things via discussion at the field, which we have the luxury of, because we are a static crown. I merely speak on my own accord as another thought for you when looking at your process. As well, I said you have a good checks and balance in place. I didn't say it was necessarily the correct one or the best one. I simply said it was a good one. Something that most KDs don't have at all. Also, please keep in mind, that this also helps me take a look at how we do things, so that I have a different perspective for my KD as well.

Please also note

Unfortunately, I don't feel that there is a perfect checks and balances. The simple fact of the matter is that all of us, Knights included, are going to have personal bias, we're human, it's what makes us whom we are, and why we vote the way we do. What may be acceptable to me, may not be to you or any other knight, we all have our views. We will never get rid of someone saying he/she did this x# yrs back and so they don't deserve it.

While you specifically or your KD itself may not look at knights from KD "X" in a certain way, the plain and simple fact is that alot of people through out Amtgard do look at where you recieved your belt from to jusdge its worthiness, regardless of how the belt was given. As an example take a look at all of the ridicule the 4 from GV who got knighted in a basement took; and whether it was the individuals who were being looked at, the process by which it happened or both. Do you think that situation has caused members of Amtgard to look differently at knights from GV? Personally, I know it has. Then again I knew that GV knights were looked at differently when I got knighted.

[Iago]

Jacked the quoting all up , but you get the point.

[Wugem]

Gzz two days till this vote comes up and there is so much unanswered..So please help me out .

1st Can we get in contact with the knights that have left the game and have them post why they left the game?

2nd If the system is broken / which is being implied / I will need to see proof before I can vote that a change is needed?

3rd Do other knights feel as Hern does? That a change is needed?

4th and where the fuck are my car keys?

Peace Love guardians hold to hope that we find better days.

WuGem

Looking at problems thru a key holes is thirsty work, that’s why I reach for a cold bubba light at the end of a long day ,. Bubba light now in the new bullet proof camouflaged can.

[OTTO VON MUELLER]

Iag- As we discussed at clan, the unique perspective you provide, from a person outside of this group, outside its concerns, has become an expectation each time we have a discussion.

Unfortunately, I don't feel that there is a perfect checks and balances.

Yep. Perfection is clearly out of anyone’s reach. Your feeling is very true. Progress is all one can hope for. No matter one's opinion on the proposal, as many have said rightly, it is up to the populace of GP to decide. (Which is why for me friend Wujem, there is no better place to have this conversation, also there are earlier points in the thread for those Knights who chose to comment.)

While you specifically or your KD itself may not look at knights from KD "X" in a certain way, the plain and simple fact is that alot of people through out Amtgard do look at where you recieved your belt from to jusdge its worthiness, regardless of how the belt was given.

We cannot account for the ill-informed or the biased in all things as you have noted in your earlier comments. The same is true here. We can only hope to do what is right and just for our populace.

Also Iag, there is another thread for some of your other concerns regarding a rule whose namesake himself is pushing for completion…

… At any rate, from a pragmatic point of view in this discussion, and in the interest of distilling the conversation has been had here to date down to something to act on, we do end up with what seems to be the main big point of anyone who has more to say than “yes” or “no”:

Monkey said it most succinctly:

Something needs to happen to this proposal that gives a bigger checks and balances than 1 person deciding who becomes a Knight.

This seems to be the central concern.

Again, no matter your opinion on the matter, from a factual point of view this ignores the fact that a much weaker version of Hern’s proposal is how it is done now in most places other than GP, and they have yet to explode. They have people of respect, quality, etc.

Still a concern is a concern, and so Wretch’s idea seems the best solution to this particular concern. That idea would certainly allow for Thurg’s well stated concept of “knight of the people” to be realized (really good idea no matter who you are I think) but without the fears some seem to have of a Monarchy run amok. So we end up with the original post, Option A, and this as the newest solution to date, Option B:

5.511 If the Kingdom Monarch bestows an Order of knighthood on someone prior to the approval of the majority of active/eligible Knights, the person being knighted MUST meet the criteria set forth in the most current Award Standardization Process listed in the Rules of Play and MUST have approval of a 2/3 majority vote at Kingdom Althing.

[Thorshammer]

i see alot of well they do it this way here and that way there and it works... and in the end those are valid points... but when it comes down to it we are GP not BL or WL or any of the others. we are a unique kindgom filled with unique people who while there is often strife amongst us these seperate factions make us a totaly different culture than the other kingdoms.in the end whatever is decided we need to make sure thatour policies reflect us as a whole not just "everyone else is doing it"

[OTTO VON MUELLER]

Yep...check this out

The intent of what follows is best described within, but know that this is a recommendation that would put us in good stead with the Amtgard standard for the Knighthood section of the corpora (see Amtgardinc.com for the core document in use, there are a multitude of similar examples from the other lands). While it should be clear, this is certainly not recommended only for the standardization reason alone. It so happens that their reasons for doing what they do, and so what they say in their corpora, are good reasons and reflect our needs. This makes sense; we are all thinking and working on many of the same issues. Some issues as old as the group. So, the reason this must be done is the best one any could hope for—because it will make our group much better— and what follows will still leave us as the most demanding group in all respects for those who hope to achieve Knighthood. Give the intro at 5.5 a chance—you’ll see the main points and have many reasons to become familiar with all of it.

... Not to mention all of this:

PROPOSED AMTGARD-ALIGNED GP CORPORA SECTIONS



5.5 Knighthood:

Amtgard has experimented with several systems of criteria for knighthood. None of them worked very well, mainly because people wanted the mark of achievement more than the achievements themselves. It is unfortunate that so many believe a white belt will elevate them past their own foibles and fears. Not withstanding the mistakes of the past, here are the latest criteria for Knighthood. It is an attempt to at least partially recognize the efforts of our brightest and our best. This system might yield a higher percentage of white belts than other medieval organizations. That only reflects Amtgard’s trend away from the massive arrogance found elsewhere that implies it is the mark of a knightly persona to drive the infidels (translate to: “other guys”) into the ground. In the modern, “real” world, knighthood is awarded for a variety of reasons (feeding the starving, ending a bloody conflict, curing a disease, creating things of significant meaning, etc.). These knights make things better for the population through many avenues, and their good works do not end once they become “Sir” or “Dame”. We take a page from that perspective and see this as a step toward not only recognizing excellence, but also as recognition of the role one assumes when knighted. This person is a teacher and a doer: one who is knowledgeable, one who shares that knowledge, and one who acts to help others succeed. In fact, this recognition demands such a commitment to the populace.*

[Monkey]

The only reason i'm against Herns Proposal is because GP is a small Kingdom and with GP being so Small that we are very much involved with alot of Each others Personal Lives.
((I know that A is sleeping with B that slept with C because C was a Dick so A left and is now with D..))

Other kingdoms dont go to a restaurant after Quals or any group function and have most of the lands Represented there because they are MUCH bigger than GP..

With GP being so small having a Knight from each field being represented in the COKs is a good checks in balances for opinions needed on Qualified members of GP..

another reason why 1 person having all the power within a small group is a bad idea is because we're so small that that 1 persons dicision affects the kingdom Far more than it would if we were to have alot more people involved within GP..

[Ryuujin]

but if you were A you would want to sleep with me too monkey. don't lie.lol

[Kluno]

Piss on you guys...I am not sleeping with anybody for NOTHING..well except my husband

[Wugem]

Thank you all for sharing your view points, and a special thanks to those who communicated with me outside the forums, your candor and trust are appreciated on my quest to make a informed decision.

Still this is much like looking thru a key hole at a crime scene and the underling question “is the juice worth the squeeze” gzz this things got folks fired up,..and all I can think is, this does little to create unity no matter the outcome or maybe it does either way we are all going to be standing there looking at each other maybe we actual have fun aahh okay maybe we just start communicating better.

As of current all I can think is “I bet there will be some bad ass ditching tomorrow” with all the folks that are going. really hope a lot of knights show up and share their COK experiences with the populace so we / me ..Can get a better idea of the environment in which the duties of being a knight are carried out.

Disclaimer ..I realize some CoK business is classified ,I ask to not break that trust just share what you can,.

Till then fellow guardians look to the sky perhaps solace be there

WuGem

[Darken]

and all I can think is, this does little to create unity no matter the outcome or maybe it does either way we are all going to be standing there looking at each other maybe we actual have fun aahh okay maybe we just start communicating better.

Unity would be the perfect dream, but as long as 1 person has a different point of view. But with out different point of views we become stagnent and in a rut. The true goal is to strive for fairness, and equality.

When it comes to fairness that's easy to see but hard to fix. As long as people hold thier petty differences and make decisions on what they think about someone, or their apperance, or who they hang out with, Instead of what they are doing for the game, or what they have done. Then this will always be a fight. The best way to fix this is change the format to how things are done, instead of changeing everyone from the inside.

As for Equality people need to forget about awards and everything else, cause in the end we are all just a bunch of dorks hitting each other with foam in a park. Can't be more equal than that.

[Hopper]

That is not true Pot(darken) what about the people that do not go out on the field anymore but do a lot on this game for others. I am talking about those do AnS. Do we just forget this people and keep each other with sticks? That is a pretty lame comment coming from our monarch.

[Darken]

Its a general post hopper, in the end this is just a game. Just because you sit at home and do A&S instead of go fight, still doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

Then your a dork doing A&S for a game instead of fighting. Its no difference. Think before you speak stupidity is not a good look on you.

[Hopper]

Wow that's what you come back with saying I do not fight. It's people like you that make this game not to fun to play. I never once came out and called you any thing that was mean or hateful but that is a great way for a monarch to act to his peers.

[Iago]

Its a general post hopper, in the end this is just a game. Just because you sit at home and do A&S instead of go fight, still doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

Then your a dork doing A&S for a game instead of fighting. Its no difference. Think before you speak stupidity is not a good look on you.

You're right. it is a game. But, wow, really?

[Naomi_Silverflame]

Its a general post hopper, in the end this is just a game. Just because you sit at home and do A&S instead of go fight, still doesn't make you any better than anyone else.

Then your a dork doing A&S for a game instead of fighting. Its no difference. Think before you speak stupidity is not a good look on you.

wow. what iago said. way to support fairness and equality, there.

[Kazon_DO]

ok this is offically my first post

what we all need to do is get into a big circle hold hands and sing kum ba ya, and get over all the stuff that has happened, yea there is alot of changes happening, now im not saying to give the monarch the power to knight some one, but im not saying that we shouldn't, im a neutral party, im in amtgaurd for the game, and to have fun, but what i see is alot of people looseing sight of that, they are take it too seriously, and everyone needs to give it up, i know that i've only been in the GAME for just a little bit over a year in a half, but from what i have seen, is pouple just doing what ever they can to get what they belive is right, and im sorry if this dosent make since, im not know for my words and i may say stuff over and over, and some may become confused, but think on what you understand.

Kazon (the steamboat captain)

[Iago]

[quote="SirHern"]5.51 Only the Monarch of the Kingdom may knight people into any of the four Orders of Knighthood. Although not required, it is strongly suggested that candidates have the approval of a majority of active/eligible Knights (see 3.45).



Might I suggest, making this read.


5.5- Only the Monarch of the Kingdom may knight people into any of the four orders of Knighthood. The Monarch must have approval of the Circle of Knights (CoK). CoK will determine requirements for approval/disapproval.

This is what I am gettign ready to propose in BL. What I mean by the last sentence, is that not every circle does things the same way. Some do things by simple majority vote, some require 75%. Leave that to the Circle. I also just realized this is covered currently in your corpora under 3.43


If that Doesn't Work......Modify the following from:

3.471 If the Monarch is not a Knight, then the Guildleader of the Circle of
Knights shall award the subject of Knighthood.

To:
3.471 If the Monarch is not a knight, then the Guildleader of the CoK shall award the subject of Knighthood, only with Monarch approval. (I.E. Monarch still presents scroll, but a Knight performs physical ceremony, or Monarch and a Knight jointly perform ceremony)

Honestly this is how it sounds that GP currently does things, and I think merely clarifies.

Just an opinion