Forums of the Kingdom of the Golden Plains

I hate quoting things.

When you quote something.. make sure that [ quote ] is before what you want quoted and then [ /quote ] is at the end.. its not rocket surgery..

Thanks for the tip Monkey

Here are my thoughts a few of the proposals and points made.

14b. Wretch proposed the following addendum to Hern’s proposal:

5.511 If the Kingdom Monarch bestows an Order of knighthood on someone prior to the approval of the majority of active/eligible Knights, the person being knighted MUST meet the criteria set forth in the most current Award Standardization Process listed in the Rules of Play and MUST have approval of a 2/3 majority vote at Kingdom Althing

I agree with Sir Warblade that there is the potential to recruit "cannon fodder" to sway a vote in whichever direction. However, Shotgun brought up how such tactics would disrespect and cheapen the person being knighted, and they have the choice not to accept it until it is done right. A possible solution is that one has to be a resident of their local field for no less than a year, dues paid, and at least 14 years old in order to vote in this proceding. Of course, this is only one possible solution, and am eager to hear others.

I truly believe that this proposal can do great things for this Kingdom, if we just are able to go about it the right way.

14c. Wugem proposed the following addendum to Hern’s proposal:

Monarch must appoint a Knight to perform the Knighting ceremony.

I agree with Wu Gem. A military officer is not promoted by a civilian. A member of the masons is not sworn in by a non-mason. Ideally, one should be entered into the peerage by a fellow knight who welcomes them.

14d. The populace was informed that currently any knight who received her/his knighthood in GP and currently active in Amtgard but in another Kingdom, may cast a vote in the Circle of Knights. Jeddak proposed this addendum to Hern’s proposal:

“Active” should now be defined as Active in the Kingdom of the Golden Plains.

Although this would disqualify my own knight from voting in the Circle of Knights, I'm sure he also would agree with this proposal. If a Knight is not a member of Golden Plains, does not attend a Golden Plains park on a regular basis, and does not see what is going on within the borders of the Kingdom (good or bad) with their own eyes, their vote is possibly misinformed and can be misused.

At the outset, I have to say I share other’s surprise at the seeming lack of interest by many in furthering this discussion. There were a bunch of folks that asked to table this proposal for further discussion. This forum is what we agreed to use to hash out these issues at length. I thought we made at least some headway in making this process more reasonable and understandable. Sufficed to say, many of these issues seem abundantly plain, and so that may explain the silence. Other aspects seem to be kept to a whisper, and so that may explain the silence as well. Either way the silence helps no one. I’m not in on any of those discussions, but I am sure of what is reasonable and just.

14a. Jeddak proposed the following addendum to Hern’s proposal:

Guildleader has veto power on Monarch’s ability to bestow knighthood until the next CoK meeting.

This is hard to see other than a workaround to void Hern’s proposal, as this would simply cycle all decisions back to the CoK. If you don’t want things to change then vote no, don’t complicate the issue further.

14b. Wretch proposed the following addendum to Hern’s proposal:

5.511 If the Kingdom Monarch bestows an Order of knighthood on someone prior to the approval of the majority of active/eligible Knights, the person being knighted MUST meet the criteria set forth in the most current Award Standardization Process listed in the Rules of Play and MUST have approval of a 2/3 majority vote at Kingdom Althing.

Others discussed Kingdom-wide surveys and such. This is not possible for Monarch votes yet, and is a sure invitation to corruption.

Honestly this works. This works because it’s more strict than the process we are going through now. We are going to an althing to vote on changes. Changes were made to the corpora 2 ½ years ago that were significant. Changes were also made 7 months ago that were significant. No one hijacked the althing with a bunch of random folks either time. No meteors fell from the sky. We had a vote. Changes were proposed last althing, and no one hijacked the althing then. We had an vote and it was tabled to be discussed here.

The arguments against this proposal as possibly being corrupted by “grabbing a bunch of folks from pizza hut” is about as rational as any of the other reasons to keep this from the populace. Just in case you missed it, the “pizza hut” concern is not rational. These concerns make no sense because the very process we use to make any change, an Althing, has to be respected or the whole process is crap from the beginning. No one said that Althings were crap 2 ½ years ago or 7 months ago. That’s because they’re not, Althings are the main and only way we create change and resolve issues in the game at any level. This is a distraction from the real issues at hand.

14c. Wugem proposed the following addendum to Hern’s proposal:

Monarch must appoint a Knight to perform the Knighting ceremony.

Fine. Another check on the process. A Knight has to back-up the populace and the King.

14d. The populace was informed that currently any knight who received her/his knighthood in GP and currently active in Amtgard but in another Kingdom, may cast a vote in the Circle of Knights. Jeddak proposed this addendum to Hern’s proposal:

“Active” should now be defined as Active in the Kingdom of the Golden Plains.

OK then. Glad we could get this out in the open.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are left with this boiled down version of two paths:

A. CoK can elevate anyone to Knighthood with Monarch approval as per usual.

B. The Monarch can elevate someone to Knighthood ONLY IF that person has:

• 1. Masterhood/Warlord
  
  2. And 2/3 Kingdom Althing Approval
  
  3. And a Knight must then agree to perform the ceremony if the Monarch is not a Knight.

So, moving on then, a lot of this debate seemed to surround whether people liked the way this was proposed or not, liked the Knights Circle or not, felt liked by the Knights Circle or not. None of those things matter. They matter personally yes, but they haven’t the slightest thing to do with the process. Some of the reasons behind those feelings probably matter but seem to be clouded still--people walking on rice paper for fear of permanent damage to their career in Amtgard, or for fear of breaking a code of silence and so possibly fearing backlash in the future.

We are left with what was openly discussed:

Honestly, Hern’s proposal as it stands has produced some of the best any Kingdom could hope for. I know some of them, and many of the first ones, and challenge you to hold any process above that which produced any of those knights. Moreover, I challenge anyone to spin wild tales about a few random bad eggs, because they could and would happen no matter what system we hope to use. What matters here is making the right choice, as the proposal hopes, to make our group stronger and to make sure we do what is right for those who serve us so well.

Our Knights are packed tight in some places or stretched thin in others as was discussed in the last Althing. The voices of two Southern knights will clearly not sway those of the many in the North. Nor should it always. They can’t travel all the time, how could they know? So the expectations placed on them are unreasonable possibly. There seems no way for us to expect them to serve as judges of people they often know little or nothing about. It seems unreasonable still to neglect all those who aren’t in the right place at the right time. Peerage can’t just be about coincidence-- circumstances that allow those better connected or better placed to rise while others are ignored. The people can help here. As we can be trusted to amend the very document that shapes the game we play, as we can be trusted to elect the leaders that serve us, we can join together to help elevate our best and brightest.

As it seems necessary to assuage doubts, Wretch’s amendment to the proposal stands as the best way to make this process better, and protects us from the ram-rodding of a Knight (no matter how far-fetched that might be). A 2/3 vote at Kingdom Althing is more than we ask of other important issues we put to a vote. It allows us to have two paths to peerage that don’t conflict but complement one another. It creates a way to provide for the needs of the Kingdom as a whole and protects the meaning that makes a white belt what it is.

The people we produce as our leaders are a reflection of us. The longest standing leaders of any Amtgard community are our Knights. There is no better way to ensure that is an accurate reflection than to pass Hern’s proposal with Wretch’s 2/3 Althing amendment.

So in this perfect system where we elect out Knights by 2/3 majority vote. How does one get brought up for a vote? Can anyone do it, could I walk up to the allthing and bring anyone with a masterhood / warlord, up for a vote for knighthood? If so, then it just boils right back down to a popularity war, which is what you people are so afraid is happening in the CoK right now. Anyone who has a masterhood and has enough people to vote for them, excluding the "pizza hut" scenario, gets a knight's belt even if they don't deserve it or aren't truly qualified for it. This won't change things, the people with the right connections will get their belts while people who really deserve it but aren't known about get passed up...

You talk about leadership, part of leadership is showing other people that you ARE a leader. A leader in the kingdom is someone who not only supports their own field but shows up to kingdom level events, allthings, runs for office, holds workshops among many other valuable things. A "leader" should be an asset to the kingdom as a whole not just their own park, there is no right place at the right time, if being a leader was important to someone, they would be a leader...

It's like thinking that your vote for the president of the United States is what actually gets counted...

The people of the United States don't pick their leader, a group of other community leaders called the Electoral College choose who becomes president. I can site several sources where the Electoral College has gone against popular vote and elected a president if you need proof.

So back to leadership, the Knights of the kingdom are the longest standing leaders in the kingdom, I'll agree with you there, but why take away their right to vote for who joins their sacred order? If you have trouble grasping the concept, think about it like the United States... The Knights are our Electoral College, and the Knights being leaders in our community take what they hear from us, the community, what they see of the person, and make a decision based on their own experience as leaders. It may go against popular vote sometimes but if we the populace knew what it took to be a Knight, we would be knights...

Also, keep in mind that a vote of no isn't always going to be a vote of no... People mature, grow as individuals within the community, become leaders, hone and master their skills. It's like I said before, you have to have your masterhood to be qualified to be a knight, but having your masterhood doesn't make you qualified to be a knight.

Getting a knight's belt is like running a triathlon, it takes a lot of practice, a lot of dedication and a lot of perseverance. Getting your masterhood is like completing the first part of the race, proving you're worthy of being a knight in the minds of the knights is like completing the second part, and finally getting that shiny white belt is like finishing your triathlon. You can't just skip the bike ride and sprint your way to knight's belt...

This won't change things, the people with the right connections will get their belts while people who really deserve it but aren't known about get passed up...

You agree that coincidence and circumstance are a big part of the process now. This takes a lot of guts and I commend you for looking for ways in which we agree. There is not a whole lot of that going around these days. However your lack of confidence in the populace and you willingness to let what you yourself admit is an unbalanced situation stand is disappointing. I don’t really think you think so little of our group’s populace. I certainly hope not at least. I think everyone is concerned about any change. We just have think through it. This is a way to make our group stronger, and make it meaningful to those who will likely never even have the opportunity to dig deep and aim high otherwise.

You call the proposal “perfect” in what I assume was sarcasm however. What is proposed is a system that at least admits the imperfections in the system and seeks to help rectify them. 70 are better at seeing more than 7 are. They can't be in all places at once. Everyone has other demands on their time. Moreover, we're making it harder than any other path in Amtgard as a whole to go this route. It's certainly not just a really tough vote but achieving more recognition than some Knights have ever had to achieve.

Really though, the populace is what makes this group a group. If some people have a problem with the populace in general--that’s a different conversation entirely. One I hope we don’t have to have.

Moreover, a person can be bound to a Shire producing amazing A&S work, running a Duchy and making it great for 6 terms, or just serving as a great Amtgarder and helping others, and should still have a chance to be recognized by the Kingdom. A white belt shouldn’t have travel as a main requirement like you describe, burdening the process with costs unassociated with their service--which we all know is wrong I think. The Knights are the scouts by definition but we are spread out and they are not. People with a great dedication to the game and who make it markedly better, who teach others, etc. should have a chance to get recognized whether they can make it to the right event or not. That’s one of the things that is so great about what has been done to date with the Crown and the effort put into traveling to the underrepresented communities.

Moreover, you say this will “take away their right to vote” (their= CoK). It doesn’t, plain and simple. This provides a 2nd path to allow for the those folks that wont even have the opportunity to be recognized otherwise, given what you stated that is quoted at the top.

CoK can elevate anyone to Knighthood with Monarch approval as per usual.

I appreciate your concerns and hope you will have the opportunity to see all that can be achieved if we give ourselves the chance to help make this better.

As a side note, I would recommend using metaphors that don’t involve running shorts and speedos like they do in the Triathlon. Visual people tend to throw up a bit given it’s Amtgard folks like us we are talking about.

i like the idea of the 2/3 populace vote + CoK vote + Monarch approval and you just need 2 of the 3 to be knighted...i really dont have much to say on the matter other than i think it sounds cool and effective. i agree with zander on the "electoral college" bit but i also agree with otto when he says that something needs to change. the knighting process right now is a popularity contest but such prestigious awards are always that way. well i dont wanna say always but they definitely come off like that. now, i like our knights and i like our populace to include the monarch. i have full confidence in all three groups. i think any one of the groups, now or in the future, can be easily swayed. therefore, we need a checks and balances. maybe thinking of the populace as the judicial system, the knights as the house of representatives, and the monarch as president will help? i really dont know. never was good with governement or political stuff.

basically what im thinking is either "2/3 populace vote + CoK vote + Monarch approval and you just need 2 of the 3 to be knighted" or leave the system how it is and just add that the populace can veto monarch and cok with 2/3 vote but cant vote someone into knighthood.

No, I haven't forgotten about this matter, or any other corpora issues. I have had mundania kick in a bit with being made full time at work and the start of the new semester(I am currently stealling computer time before class).

I have a long response to this issue and the proposals involved, and will try to post it in the near future.

I strongly object to changes to the system of knighthood for a number of reasons, which I shall try to cover thoroughly herein.

1. The system itself is not as flawed as many think. The system, when looked at through a fully analytical mind, is actually quite sound as it is. Masters are supposed to personifying their Order, be it Warrior, Rose, Dragon, etc. Knighthood is meant to be recognition of the elite amonst these Masters. Too many people see Masterhood as the 11th Order to get Knighted. How do you determine the elite in a field? By listening to the opinion of those already deemed elite. We have 12 Active, Dues Paid Knights if memory serves me, each one of which is a strong willed, "Type A" person. Getting 7 of them to agree on a candidate is a complex process of agruement and counterpoint. But should 7 or more of them agree, then it speaks volumes of the qualities of that candidate.

So where is the Check to this system? The Monarch veto. Should the Monarch disagree with a candidate who has passed a circle vote, they may veto that candidate for the length of there term. This can also extend the process, as now the candidate has time todo something stupid enough to have a knight call for a revote. Furthermore, we have something that I don't believe any other kingdom in Amtgard can claim: a Knight in each of our lands. These Knights should also be listening to the people as to whether a candidate has the qualities of knighthood. Likewse, the populace should not hesitate to discuss their views of someone who is qualified with the knights. After all, they are human and not omnicients; they cannot see everything that a person does for the game.

How does the populace have a say in this matter? They vote in the Monarch. The Monarch should act as the voice of the people in this matter, should talk to the populace about their opinions of those who are qualified and get a feel of the consensus view.

The system will produce far fewer knights, as evident in the main reason people want this section changed. However, I would have few Knights, or exceptional quality and skill, rather than a large pool of medicore Knights.

2. I heard so many people say that they haven't been recognized for there efforts at this last allthing, it made me sick. You should not do something for recognition, it should be done for the love of that aspect of the game. Furthermore, when was the last time anyone offer award recommendations to the Kingdom Monarchy? I heard several times that people have not done this because "it would just fall on deaf ears." Those who try once, fail to be heard, and give up only add to this system's disfunction. Only those who will stand and declare their views regardless of the reception shall eventually create change. I have personally recommended awards for a person who was being overlook for 4 straight terms once. It took time, but their good works were finally seen and recognized. If you falter in your conviction about a recommendation, they you must not truly have felt it worthy of recognition.

And even if previous Monarchs were casting a deliberate blind eye to things, we must remember that we have just transistioned to a new style of governance in the form of a true floating crown. This will increase the visibility of those who tend to do more at their home parks, which are the fundamental building blocks of the Kingdom. But we must give this process time to act. Change does not come overnight. If you thought that once this Kingdom became a true floating crown, that all the problems would be solved and everyone would live in a land of shiny happiness, then you were deeply dillusional to how reality works. We are already begnning to see those who have been overlooked get recognition and become Masters. Now, allow the process to run its course. It is for this reason, I would presonally not wish to see any change to how Knighthood is awarded in this Kingdom for at least 2 years. You may have thought that the Knighthood system was broken under our old government, but we have yet to see how it will truly work under the new one.

3. While it has little bearing on my views of this issue, there is still a greater, more danergous issue I sense at play behind the motivation of many to see this though. At this allthing, on a handful of faces, I saw unabridged hatred for those from Amarillo. I will not speak to whether the feelings of Amarillo ruling as tyrants, etc. here. All I will say is that before any lasting and definite headway can be made, we must all forgive the injustices of the past, be them perceived or real, and focus on moving forward. I sat with those from my home park, and when I lloked around I saw several pairs of eyes view me with nothing but disdain. Yet those eyes, know nothing of my past, or my views. I was judged because of where I play at. The longer we allow this kind of reaction to exist, we will never become what we can be. If you focus on the past, you will merely achor the kingdom down from advancing toward the bright future that awaits us.

While I do not believe that it is a needed change, I commend Hern for this proposal. This is because I feel he did exactly what our knights should be: he listened to the views of the populace around him, and took action to change it. I do not agree that the change to knighthood is needed, and that this will be illustrated if given the proper time for our new system to work, I appluad the spirit of the change as this is how we should conduct ourselves. If we do not listen to those around us, we will never be more than a backwater kingdom caught in the quagmire of our own pettiness.

In Service to the Dream that Could Be the Kingdom of the Golden Plains,
Baronet Arminius the Pale-Skinned.
Born in Golden Plains, Raised in Irongate

Well put...

i normally don't post much so ill keep it short.

Out of all the ideas i have see i think Nevon's view of things is the best so far. Because it offers the most options with the best version of checks. And because one of the points being brought up the most was the idea that one man can be corrupt. But in all ideas, that one man is given at the very least the power to keep someone from being knighted.why? With Nevon's option the knights have an option to keep from being stone walled also.And the people who believe they are being stone walled by the knights have there option also. So that we can truly have the best and most fair system for knighting that we can possibly have.

And just as a side note the generic idea that "change is bad" will stop all growth in whatever you apply it to. change is how we evolve into being the best that we can be.and like i said, Nevon's idea is the best so far. But there have only been three ideas( four if you count the "let's not change vote"). So please if there is a flaw that you see, voice your opinion and put new ideas out there so that we can continue to grow as a group. Not just find a witch hunt or go on one.

Ryuujin wrote:
And just as a side note the generic idea that "change is bad" will stop all growth in whatever you apply it to. change is how we evolve into being the best that we can be.

This true, if we do not change, we can never grow.

However, my point is that too much change at once can be just as bad as no change at all. We have made a monumental change in how we govern ourselves. Rather than simply tossing an idea aside because it was "the old way," give things a chance to see how they work in the new system. The chance in governance may have solved the problem. The only we way we will know this is by giving the system some time to run.

The damage that can be done with changing too much too fast is much harder to repair than the anything that comes from incremental change.

and your point is also true. but, when there are enough people unhappy that something like this gets brought up at a allthing and when knights are getting so angry that they are saying something to get put on probation from fighting for, the system has failed. and moving to slowly will cause the same hurt feeling and problems you are trying to avoid. so i think instead of pretending that nothing is wrong we should move to fix it. and the best way we can do that is voice our opinion. so i thank you for doing so.

Ryuujin wrote:and your point is also true. but, when there are enough people unhappy that something like this gets brought up at a allthing and when knights are getting so angry that they are saying something to get put on probation from fighting for, the system has failed. and moving to slowly will cause the same hurt feeling and problems you are trying to avoid. so i think instead of pretending that nothing is wrong we should move to fix it. and the best way we can do that is voice our opinion. so i thank you for doing so.

People will always be unhappy when things don't go exactly the way they think it should. Which is exactly why you had a knight say something that got them put on probation. They weren't happy with someone else's personal indifference. It happens! It happens time and time again.

I have 2 thoughts on this now that may or may not give some insight on how I personnaly view things.

1st-- Do you feel that your KD has good knights? If you do, isn't the process that you currently have the same that made these good knights? If you don't, shouldn't this have been brought up along time ago, under different circumstances?

2nd--From a non-amtgard view. Compare this to the NFL Hall of Fame selection. Do current players get to vote? Do people who have no involvement in the Hall of Fame get to vote on who will go? No they don't. The people who are already in the hall of Fame, and a committe (writers usually) who have earned that right are those who vote. I think this could sum up the process of the the NFL Hall of Fame. With that, the CoK (those who have been knighted already) and the Monarch (the approved comitee) are those who vote.

Iago posted;"People will always be unhappy when things don't go exactly the way they think it should. Which is exactly why you had a knight say something that got them put on probation. They weren't happy with someone else's personal indifference. It happens! It happens time and time again."

maybe i am just missing your point. But if the people that run the hall of fame aren't happy with the way things are being done in there hall of fame isn't that an indication that something is wrong? don't get me wrong, im not just trying to hear myself speak. but when one knight gets probation and another brings the problems he has before an allthing i have to assume that something is wrong.and sense it was brought up at a allthing, it is the players responsibility to make the best judgment they can isn't it? and yes i understand that you don't think that our say on who gets knighted should matter. but this is something that one of the "hall of famers"
brought up as the way he thinks it should be changed to. and sense the ball has been put in our court we would be doing a disservice to the game if we didn't make the best possible decision we could. don't you agree? and as far as knights themselvse go, the only knights that have talked to me have said they like the idea. but the problem with that is i have only been able to talk to two knights about this. all the others voiced an opinion at the allthing, but most of them wont talk to me one on one about it. not really sure why but it just doesn't happen. and when we were asked to talk about this on the forums i didn't get there opinion ether. so we are back to making the best decision that we can.and yes i do thank you for your input. and i am sorry if i just missed your point all together. but as a group if there is a problem and we don't fix it than we will not grow, and the game cannot get better.and we will just keep going in circles. so i think something needs to happen. and as i said before i think Nevon's idea is the best so far and it seems the most balanced. but there is always room for improvement. other ideas are always welcomed. if i missed your point then i look forward to reading your next post.

I agree Iago you can't make everyone happy, and thoses that try are doomed to faliure. I have heard the same bitching from well over the majority of the populace for years. So to me personally I see a problem.
We do need a change, but remember arminius even a failed change is just an allthing away from going back to how it was, or fixing the bad parts. Nothing is permanent, so why not try for something that may be better, and can always be removed.

As for the proposals this is how I see it.
Jeddeck - Monarch must have COK approval.
Well if this is the case why didn't the CoK already vote this person in? Kinda pointless.

Arminius - The system itself is not as flawed as many think. The system, when looked at through a fully analytical mind, is actually quite sound as it is.
You are right in this matter, but you have to relieze that it's the people in the system that make it fail, not the system itself. And yes you are correct that the Monarch can veto, but that just puts a hold on it for 6 months. But just so you know the person that I vetoed, other kingdoms came up to our CoK and offered to knight this person. The GL of CoK told them no out of respect to our kingdom. So the monarch veto is not as powerful a tool as you may think.

I think Wretchs proposal is one of the better ones I like it needs a few changes though.
I would first make sure that the person for knighting must have had a masterhood/warlord for at least one year. That way someone can't give a masterhood/warlord then turn around and knight them right after. As for the 2/3rd vote. If a King wants this person to be knighted bad enough, then I feel they should travel to each park get the votes of the populace at the parks, and double checked by the local monarch or next highest offical at that park so there is no descrepensy to the petition. And I do believe the King should have a knight to perform the ceremony.
I personally think this is a fairly sound choice. I have seen one problem with it and can't think of a solution so a little help would be nice.
The masterhood/warlord only covers 3 belts, crown is currently set as "so many exceptional terms in office" no masterhood is given out for this. We need a check for crown belts.

Darken wrote: I have seen one problem .
The masterhood/warlord only covers 3 belts, crown is currently set as "so many exceptional terms in office" no masterhood is given out for this. We need a check for crown belts.

In addition to the line about having a masterhood add: or for Crown must meet the suggested number of offices at the appropriate levels stated in the current rules of play awards standards.

Darken wrote:We need a check for crown belts.

This is as easy as checking with the Kingdom Prime Minister. Also, Amtwiki keeps a running record of Golden Plains Monarchy history, which is updated every new reign.

http://amtwiki.net/amtwiki/index.php/GP_Monarchy

In Service,

Lord Squire Wretch
~ Count of Dark Oasis

Yeah I see where ya'll are coming from. But here's my point a masterhood shows exceptional work at what they achevied.
Just because we know that a person held the correct number of positions, and this could be over a long period of time. Who's to say they were exceptional reigns, they may have just been place holders and did nothing at all. Think if they met the required # criteria 6 years ago, how many people are gonna remember what they did, if it was bad it gets remembered, if it's good it gets forgot over time, if they didn't do anything who knows.
The people still get to decide, so if they know this person didn't do it then hey thats good. But that still leaves only to checks for this belt.

Nevon’s idea is a really good one, it’s not described in the original wording but it the where this was heading all the time and just hadn’t spelled it out. Kudos to Nevon for realizing it (and to Ryu for noting it).

Here’s where we wind up:


We are left with this boiled down version of THREE paths:

A. CoK can elevate anyone to Knighthood with Monarch approval as per usual.

B. The Monarch can elevate someone to Knighthood ONLY IF that person has:

• 1. Masterhood/Warlord
  
  2. And 2/3 Kingdom Althing Approval
  
  3. And a Knight must then agree to perform the ceremony if the Monarch is not a Knight.

→C. CoK can elevate anyone to Knighthood without Monarch Approval ONLY IF that person has:

• 1. 2/3 Kingdom Althing Approval

A well-rounded set of checks and balances that allows the CoK and the populace to elevate someone to knighthood with a check on the Monarch. As Nevon put it well:

2/3 populace vote + CoK vote + Monarch approval and you just need 2 of the 3 to be knighted

The Monarch + Populace STILL has the most checks, but all are in a circle from CoK to Monarch to Populace and back. Well done. Makes a lot of sense and does justice to all groups.

I agree. Nevon's additions to my proposal makes the most sense and provides the most balance to all concerned. Huzzah!

My only concerns now are regarding the wording of the proposal in regards to Crown Knights. As King Darken stated, there is no masterhood for Crown, there is the required amount of time served in Kingdom office according to the rulebook. Are there any other options or opinions in that regard, or can we simply add into the proposal that stated requirement?

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B. The Monarch can elevate someone to Knighthood ONLY IF that person has:

1. Masterhood/Warlord/Required Terms In Office

2. And 2/3 Kingdom Althing Approval

3. And a Knight must then agree to perform the ceremony if the Monarch is not a Knight.

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In Service,

Lord Squire Wretch
~ Count of Dark Oasis

My "Masterhood/Warlord" statement was only meant to be shorthand for "meeting requirements stated in the RoP"and is what is stated in the original proposal, including earning a Crown belt.

Re: Crown-- They get elected, they serve enough times at Kingdom or Duchy level and a decision is made as to how well they served. If they do the work and are elected by the populace multiple times, kept things running well, then they've got something going for them. Or the Knights can chose to try and elevate them before meeting all of the requirements. It is just as much as a decision is made as to whether someone who qualled but was overlooked 10 years ago for their Flame belt--Amtgard says: are they still active and exhibiting qualities of a leader/teacher/doer we'd like to have in a permanent post of Knighthood? Amtgard can and has made the same decisions about a Crown belt.

Per the current proposal:

5.511 If the Kingdom Monarch bestows an Order of knighthood on someone prior to the approval of the majority of active/eligible Knights, the person being knighted MUST meet the criteria set forth in the most current Award Standardization Process listed in the Rules of Play.

5.521 Knights of the Crown:

a. a civil order for serving in the highest echelons of the group

b. colors: white trimmed with gold

c. suggested criteria: Per the current Award Standardization

It's all in there.

No worries Otto, I know it was in the original proposal and all the following additions, I just wanted make sure it was mentioned in summed up version just for the sake of thoroughness

Cheers Wretch I totally understand. So, for clarity here we go...

To Clearly State where we are at:

We have THREE paths:

5.51 A person may achieve Knighthood via any one of the following three paths:


5.511 The Circle of Knights may elevate anyone to Knighthood with Monarch approval (per the rules set forth in 3.4 Circle of Knights).


5.512 The Monarch can elevate someone to Knighthood prior to Circle of Knights Approval ONLY IF ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:

• 5.5121 The person being knighted meets the criteria set forth in the most current Award Standardization Process listed in the Rules of Play.
  
  5.5122 The person being knighted has 2/3 Kingdom Althing Approval.
  
  5.5123 After Althing approval, a Knight must agree to perform the ceremony if the Monarch is not a Knight.

5.513 CoK can elevate anyone to Knighthood prior to Monarch Approval ONLY IF:

• 5.5131 The person being knighted has 2/3 Kingdom Althing Approval

This is a successful compilation of Wretch's, Nevon's, WuGem's, and Hern's proposals.

Darken also has restated his thought to make:

• 5.121 The person being knighted must have met the criteria set forth in the most current Award Standardization Process listed in the Rules of Play and must have met that criteria 12 months prior to this process.

Also, we have yet to hear on any proposals for 3.4 Circle of Knights past Hern's original post and Darken's notes, that can be found posted in the Althing minutes.